Posts by Marvin Shilmer

274

Indiana "Religious Freedom" (right to discriminate)

by Simon in

sickening to see the photo of the religious zealots all stood around the governor signing into law the right for people to discriminate against others (gay, lesbian, trans-gender) based purely on religious dogma.. if religious people want those freedoms then the can't have it both ways - they cannot complain if *they* are discriminated against.. "sorry, we don't like zionists, get out".

"oh, it's some special mass and you can't work your shift?

you're fired!"..

Marvin Shilmer

Perhaps it should be. Why, though?

Because you injected race into a discussion regarding religious views when the particular religious view at issue is unrelated to race.

So, back to the question asked that you avoided: What do you think of a Miss White USA, Miss White Mississippi and Miss White Teen pageants?

So you think as long as there is no law against discriminating against women it's fine

No. But in this instance the discussion is about compelling individuals using written statutes, otherwise known as "laws". Hence in this case the discussion is about illegal forms of discrimination and not legal forms of discrimination.

If we are going to leverage laws to affect social change then it's only fair for judiciaries and legislators to provide clarification and time to comply for choices that have historically been left to personal choice. If a law is going to prevent a certain type of discrimination then it should be written to make that specific type of discrimination perfectly clear before someone is punished with that law. If the judiciary is going to establish common law where a statute is unclear then time for compliance should also be provided prior to issuing punitive measures.

274

Indiana "Religious Freedom" (right to discriminate)

by Simon in

sickening to see the photo of the religious zealots all stood around the governor signing into law the right for people to discriminate against others (gay, lesbian, trans-gender) based purely on religious dogma.. if religious people want those freedoms then the can't have it both ways - they cannot complain if *they* are discriminated against.. "sorry, we don't like zionists, get out".

"oh, it's some special mass and you can't work your shift?

you're fired!"..

Marvin Shilmer

So, anyone should be able to discriminate for anything?

No. Try reading what I've written already.

Discrimination is not wrong under the law unless the thing discriminated against is protected against discrimination. Moving forward I think resolution is in making it clear to business persons whatever are the rules regarding discrimination they must abide by. It sounds to me like the florist gal was not clear that under the law as a business owner she was required to provide a service contrary to her conscience. If this is the case then make it clear and provide folks a given period of time to get their affairs in order. Then the choice is stay in business, sell your business or close it down.

274

Indiana "Religious Freedom" (right to discriminate)

by Simon in

sickening to see the photo of the religious zealots all stood around the governor signing into law the right for people to discriminate against others (gay, lesbian, trans-gender) based purely on religious dogma.. if religious people want those freedoms then the can't have it both ways - they cannot complain if *they* are discriminated against.. "sorry, we don't like zionists, get out".

"oh, it's some special mass and you can't work your shift?

you're fired!"..

Marvin Shilmer

Viviane

Perhaps my question for you should be what do you think of a Miss White USA, Miss White Mississippi and Miss White Teen pageants?

I'm not a religion fan. At all!!! Insofar as I'm concerned all organized religion should be flushed down the toilet to where they all belong.

But as I said above, I'm not so sure at this point in time burning the florist's business at the stake is any less questionable than the florist's refusal of service. Both these actions cause affront when perhaps both can be respectfully accommodated.

274

Indiana "Religious Freedom" (right to discriminate)

by Simon in

sickening to see the photo of the religious zealots all stood around the governor signing into law the right for people to discriminate against others (gay, lesbian, trans-gender) based purely on religious dogma.. if religious people want those freedoms then the can't have it both ways - they cannot complain if *they* are discriminated against.. "sorry, we don't like zionists, get out".

"oh, it's some special mass and you can't work your shift?

you're fired!"..

Marvin Shilmer

My application is that if you allow discrimination against anyone then you allow discrimination against everyone.

So would your application of "If you excuse something for one then you excuse it for all" then allow as much tolerance for one as it would for another when you strongly disagree with one (think: KKK wedding event) and not the other (think: gay wedding event)?

If not, why not?

I don't think I've twisted a word of what you asserted. I think you just don't like the end it leads to.

274

Indiana "Religious Freedom" (right to discriminate)

by Simon in

sickening to see the photo of the religious zealots all stood around the governor signing into law the right for people to discriminate against others (gay, lesbian, trans-gender) based purely on religious dogma.. if religious people want those freedoms then the can't have it both ways - they cannot complain if *they* are discriminated against.. "sorry, we don't like zionists, get out".

"oh, it's some special mass and you can't work your shift?

you're fired!"..

Marvin Shilmer

She was the one who suddenly decided to tell someone that she didn't want to serve them because of what they are.

That's not the story I read. It was not what they are that caused her refusal of service but, rather, the event they wanted her to service. She was already selling flowers to the gay customer. It was the wedding ceremony she objected to servicing.

A false equivalence as well as an unlikely scenario. The people getting married may be KKK members but it is not the KKK organization getting married. If it was some KKK event I think people would have the right to refuse it.

I haven't asserted an equivalence. I asked a question, and your response dodges that question.

A florist may sell to individuals she knows to be members of the KKK. But if those same members want her to service their wedding as a KKK event then what? Should the florist be forced under the law to service the event no matter how much it hurts her moral (read: religious) conscience?

If anything we need laws to protect society FROM religion, not protect religion from individuals in society!

I agree with that sentiment, but for now religion and religious taboos are a part of human society. This takes time, and I'm not convinced that burning the florist's business at the stake is necessary.

274

Indiana "Religious Freedom" (right to discriminate)

by Simon in

sickening to see the photo of the religious zealots all stood around the governor signing into law the right for people to discriminate against others (gay, lesbian, trans-gender) based purely on religious dogma.. if religious people want those freedoms then the can't have it both ways - they cannot complain if *they* are discriminated against.. "sorry, we don't like zionists, get out".

"oh, it's some special mass and you can't work your shift?

you're fired!"..

Marvin Shilmer

Marvin Shilmer, "If you excuse something for one then you excuse it for all., Right?"
Based on that logic what happens to a gay person when he/she is refused to buy food at a supermarket.

It's not "my logic". It's Simon's words. Take it up with him.

My point is that social change takes time, and imposing harsh financial penalties onto an unsuspecting business person holding historically understandable personal religious views seems as questionable as the discriminatory behavior everyone is up in arms about.

274

Indiana "Religious Freedom" (right to discriminate)

by Simon in

sickening to see the photo of the religious zealots all stood around the governor signing into law the right for people to discriminate against others (gay, lesbian, trans-gender) based purely on religious dogma.. if religious people want those freedoms then the can't have it both ways - they cannot complain if *they* are discriminated against.. "sorry, we don't like zionists, get out".

"oh, it's some special mass and you can't work your shift?

you're fired!"..

Marvin Shilmer

How can anyone not be aware that discrimination is wrong?

Discrimination is not wrong under the law unless the thing discriminated against is protected against discrimination. In the case of the florist gal it appears to me the woman was in business and was not under an impression that wedding ceremonies for gays was protected. In terms of selling flowers she was willing to sell flowers to anyone, including gays.

274

Indiana "Religious Freedom" (right to discriminate)

by Simon in

sickening to see the photo of the religious zealots all stood around the governor signing into law the right for people to discriminate against others (gay, lesbian, trans-gender) based purely on religious dogma.. if religious people want those freedoms then the can't have it both ways - they cannot complain if *they* are discriminated against.. "sorry, we don't like zionists, get out".

"oh, it's some special mass and you can't work your shift?

you're fired!"..

Marvin Shilmer

Again, should people be allowed to have "whites only" restaurants? It's their restaurant after all.

"White only" restaurants are all over the place in the United States, and so are "black only". They call them "private clubs" in order to get around laws.

Why was it necessary to impose her opinions on other people's lives?

I don't think the florist gal was imposing her opinion on anyone. She was having an opinion imposed on her, one she apparently did not expect and did not understand as a legal requirement.

A business to business arrangement is obviously different and a business can chose not to to business with another for whatever reason it wants. A business is not a protected class.

She could refuse to sell flowers to the KKK...

So the florist gal could refuse to sell flowers to a pair of KKK members who want their marriage event performed in full KKK regalia and pomp because to do so would be contrary to her personal religious conscience, but the same florist could not refuse sell flowers to a pair of gays for their marriage event because to do so would be contrary to her personal religious conscience?

If you excuse something for one then you excuse it for all., Right?

274

Indiana "Religious Freedom" (right to discriminate)

by Simon in

sickening to see the photo of the religious zealots all stood around the governor signing into law the right for people to discriminate against others (gay, lesbian, trans-gender) based purely on religious dogma.. if religious people want those freedoms then the can't have it both ways - they cannot complain if *they* are discriminated against.. "sorry, we don't like zionists, get out".

"oh, it's some special mass and you can't work your shift?

you're fired!"..

Marvin Shilmer

If a town has 100 stores, and there are 2 gay people living there. If 95 of those stores decide to refuse them service, they are now being punished by only having 5 stores to buy from.

Moving forward I think resolution is in making it clear to business persons whatever are the rules they must abide by. It sounds to me like the florist gal was not clear that under the law as a business owner she was required to provide a service contrary to her conscience. If this is the case then make it clear and provide folks a given period of time to get their affairs in order. Then the choice is stay in business, sell your business or close it down.

I guess from now on the florist gal will have to supply floral arrangements to the KKK Grand Event whether she wants to do it or not.

274

Indiana "Religious Freedom" (right to discriminate)

by Simon in

sickening to see the photo of the religious zealots all stood around the governor signing into law the right for people to discriminate against others (gay, lesbian, trans-gender) based purely on religious dogma.. if religious people want those freedoms then the can't have it both ways - they cannot complain if *they* are discriminated against.. "sorry, we don't like zionists, get out".

"oh, it's some special mass and you can't work your shift?

you're fired!"..

Marvin Shilmer

As for the woman whose business is suffering, I'm sorry, I have no sympathy or empathy for her.

I'm neither sympathetic nor unsympathetic for this particular business owner. I'm more concerned about the question of personal liberty. If there's a store owner who wants to refuse service to someone then let them do so and let customers decide if they want to do business with such a person.